File talk:Royal Crown of Finland.svg
we're a very multicultural project, what's "not bothering others" to someone is "rudely ignoring" to the next person
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Revision as of 09:54, 21 March 2013
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::::It was only a quick mock-up, mainly for showing why the colours might seem too light. But it is mainly lighting, google the Reichskrone to see all the different shades of gold it has depending on the lighting. I hope some agreement can be found for the current file. I guess the compromise I have constructed can be darkened, but you would need to find an agreement with Fenn-O-maniC. I can't see Fenn-O-maniC accepting the darkest gold however, because he clearly aimed for a crown that would fit stylistically with the the heraldic crowns designed by Sodacan and Heralder, which he has also explained here. And the more I look at the crown, the more I want to make my own changes (all those textures, scales and waves), and that's not what anyone needs right now. :p [[User:Adelbrecht|Lemmens, Tom]] ([[User talk:Adelbrecht|talk]]) 23:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
::::It was only a quick mock-up, mainly for showing why the colours might seem too light. But it is mainly lighting, google the Reichskrone to see all the different shades of gold it has depending on the lighting. I hope some agreement can be found for the current file. I guess the compromise I have constructed can be darkened, but you would need to find an agreement with Fenn-O-maniC. I can't see Fenn-O-maniC accepting the darkest gold however, because he clearly aimed for a crown that would fit stylistically with the the heraldic crowns designed by Sodacan and Heralder, which he has also explained here. And the more I look at the crown, the more I want to make my own changes (all those textures, scales and waves), and that's not what anyone needs right now. :p [[User:Adelbrecht|Lemmens, Tom]] ([[User talk:Adelbrecht|talk]]) 23:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Although the debate is apparently resolved, I still wish to express my thoughts for the sake of posterity. I'd have liked to challenge anyone else's involvement in the design, admin or not, except the artist's themselves. The debate according to the changelogs started with [[User:WPK|WPK]] figuratively shoving aside [[User:Fenn-O-maniC|Fenn-O-maniC]]'s design with barely any reasoning, or the civility of asking to execute any changes, twice. The correct hues of the gold might well be stated with a Pantone colour somewhere and I can myself attest the original lion being of different design than the official one, but nowhere were the reasons stated clearly enough to validate them. The geometry and shading were also changed minutely and the coats of arms replaced with other versions, and not stated. If the design is wrong, the errors can as well be stated and discussed in Talks with the artist. A new derivative file might also be created. What was dealt with was a creation that probably demanded a lot of work, and despite the abscence of human faces in this interface, we're all still human, and actions towards us still wake feelings. A complete stranger simply expressing "You're wrong" and altering your work - toward which you might very well harbor a sentimental value - according to their whim isn't going to make a lot people happy about the effort of the stranger's contribution. As I can't find any statements about how the graphical representation of an actual metal item manufactured by the help of sketches should look like, I'm sure the decision goes to whomever makes the image. The disputes about what hue or shading looks nicer or clearer are only personal judgements in taste of visual art, and as with the profession in general, any judgements that carry weight are those with relevant expertise behind them. If any of the uploaders or arbiters possesses some kind of experience or expertise about the Finnish Royal Crown or its graphical representation or are even in any way involved with the crown and had expressed that, I'm sure that that opinion would have carried a lot more validity than a destructive exchange that tries to invalidate opinions by mockery. Kindliness begets kindliness. ~ [[User:Nelg|Nelg]] ([[User talk:Nelg|talk]]) 00:05, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Although the debate is apparently resolved, I still wish to express my thoughts for the sake of posterity. I'd have liked to challenge anyone else's involvement in the design, admin or not, except the artist's themselves. The debate according to the changelogs started with [[User:WPK|WPK]] figuratively shoving aside [[User:Fenn-O-maniC|Fenn-O-maniC]]'s design with barely any reasoning, or the civility of asking to execute any changes, twice. The correct hues of the gold might well be stated with a Pantone colour somewhere and I can myself attest the original lion being of different design than the official one, but nowhere were the reasons stated clearly enough to validate them. The geometry and shading were also changed minutely and the coats of arms replaced with other versions, and not stated. If the design is wrong, the errors can as well be stated and discussed in Talks with the artist. A new derivative file might also be created. What was dealt with was a creation that probably demanded a lot of work, and despite the abscence of human faces in this interface, we're all still human, and actions towards us still wake feelings. A complete stranger simply expressing "You're wrong" and altering your work - toward which you might very well harbor a sentimental value - according to their whim isn't going to make a lot people happy about the effort of the stranger's contribution. As I can't find any statements about how the graphical representation of an actual metal item manufactured by the help of sketches should look like, I'm sure the decision goes to whomever makes the image. The disputes about what hue or shading looks nicer or clearer are only personal judgements in taste of visual art, and as with the profession in general, any judgements that carry weight are those with relevant expertise behind them. If any of the uploaders or arbiters possesses some kind of experience or expertise about the Finnish Royal Crown or its graphical representation or are even in any way involved with the crown and had expressed that, I'm sure that that opinion would have carried a lot more validity than a destructive exchange that tries to invalidate opinions by mockery. Kindliness begets kindliness. ~ [[User:Nelg|Nelg]] ([[User talk:Nelg|talk]]) 00:05, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
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:It might well be that the people involved are from wikipedias other than the English one. For instance, I am native in fi.wiki but have worket at en.wiki as well. The editing atmospheres are entirely different -- en follows "editor leadership" in many cases, and there is a ton of discussing. This works for en.wiki very nicely, I've been around long enough to see why it must be that way. In fi.wiki OTOH, editors are encouraged to edit boldly and only start discussions when something's causing trouble -- there are few active editors, and those few are spread across different, often rather specific, interests that barely ever overlap. It's also in the Finnish culture overall to fix something that's broken instead of "bitching about it" (which is counterproductive when discussion indeed would be of best benefit, but it's a major strain and hard to learn out of). Some major contributors are in the habit of taking long leaves unannounced, others are suspected gone forever, some simply have a busy real life. As a fi.wiki native it would not cross my mind to ask a file uploader to tweak it, I'd do it myself and not bother the uploader, who probably has a lot of othert things to do <- typical fi.wiki thinking. Also, the ever-present ghost of cultural registers. Many Finns have great grammar and vocab for English but cannot seem to shed their thoroughly Finnish personal context in the language they use. (Suffice to say Finland has a vastly different register for what's neutral and what's rude from most of the Europe as well as USA.) So, eh, I suppose I wanted to say that there should be no suspections of bad will for "needlessly rough turns", especially here at Commons, since truer than any other Wiki project we have people from so many different cultures trying to work together. And perhaps even some [[:en:On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog|a few dogs]]... --[[User:Pitke|Pitke]] ([[User talk:Pitke|talk]]) 09:54, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
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