Commons:Categories for discussion/2013/03/Category:Trams in Prague
Category:Trams in Prague: re
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Revision as of 00:23, 21 March 2013
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It would mean that all pictures of a type/class/model of tram are in one folder, while preserving and adding to the interpretation of the categorisation by number scheme. I would also like to add that the page [[Trams in Prague by registration number]] conveys all the information the current category system does, but is much more accessible, easier to understand, and navigate than a nest of categories we currently have. What are peoples thoughts on this? [[User:Liamdavies|Liamdavies]] ([[User talk:Liamdavies|talk]]) 13:32, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
It would mean that all pictures of a type/class/model of tram are in one folder, while preserving and adding to the interpretation of the categorisation by number scheme. I would also like to add that the page [[Trams in Prague by registration number]] conveys all the information the current category system does, but is much more accessible, easier to understand, and navigate than a nest of categories we currently have. What are peoples thoughts on this? [[User:Liamdavies|Liamdavies]] ([[User talk:Liamdavies|talk]]) 13:32, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
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At first I would like to thanks ŠJů, that he send me a notice with link to this discussion. I have no idea, why creator of this discussion didn't do this, but it looks really impolite for me…
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:At first I would like to thanks ŠJů, that he send me a notice with link to this discussion. I have no idea, why creator of this discussion didn't do this, but it looks really impolite for me…
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I think, that system of categorization which uses registration numbers, is really useful, because there are many differences between trams in each type and this category tree is only possible way, how to find pictures of tram, which you want. For example special door opening systems in some T3SUCS or T3M, air conditions, three types of doors or another orientation system and outside displays in some 15T trams. Another reason are trams with advertisements etc.
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:I think, that system of categorization which uses registration numbers, is really useful, because there are many differences between trams in each type and this category tree is only possible way, how to find pictures of tram, which you want. For example special door opening systems in some T3SUCS or T3M, air conditions, three types of doors or another orientation system and outside displays in some 15T trams. Another reason are trams with advertisements etc.
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I fully understand, that it is necessary to have a category with images usable into articles; because of this I created [[:Category:Quality images of trams in Prague]] and [[Trams in Prague]], where you can find best images…
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:I fully understand, that it is necessary to have a category with images usable into articles; because of this I created [[:Category:Quality images of trams in Prague]] and [[Trams in Prague]], where you can find best images…
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If someone thinks, that it is really necessary to have category with all trams of one type, I think, that best idea is leave todays tree and create category like [[:Category:Tatras T3M in Prague]] and put all pictures of T3M into this category (or add to all images [[:Category:Tatra T3M in Prague]]).
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:If someone thinks, that it is really necessary to have category with all trams of one type, I think, that best idea is leave todays tree and create category like [[:Category:Tatras T3M in Prague]] and put all pictures of T3M into this category (or add to all images [[:Category:Tatra T3M in Prague]]).
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But as was written above by ŠJů, categorization tree by registration numbers have much reasons and it is useful. I can understand that someone, who is not into trams this looks like mess and plenty of useless categories, but in fact mess is one category with 800 pictures of Tatra T3R.P.
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:But as was written above by ŠJů, categorization tree by registration numbers have much reasons and it is useful. I can understand that someone, who is not into trams this looks like mess and plenty of useless categories, but in fact mess is one category with 800 pictures of Tatra T3R.P.
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So best idea is leave todays tree and built parallel categorization if someone thinks, that it is more useful than one category and gallery with pictures, which is possible use in articles. — [[User:Jagro|Jagro]] ([[User talk:Jagro|talk]]) 15:46, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
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:So best idea is leave todays tree and built parallel categorization if someone thinks, that it is more useful than one category and gallery with pictures, which is possible use in articles. — [[User:Jagro|Jagro]] ([[User talk:Jagro|talk]]) 15:46, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
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:Jagro, I meant no offense to you, I just did was I was instructed with the template on who to inform and how. I will however start by saying that I understand trams very well and am very knowledgeable on the subject. Regarding your points: 1) The pages you list contain only 107 images out of over 2000, not good enough. 2) The searching you highlight is not possible, there is no sorting by door count, AC, or anything other than model type/subtype and vehicle number, both of these can be addressed by a single list. 3) You are greatly exaggerating the amount of pictures that would be in the category you used as an example, there would be less than half the number you give (some where around 390, which is only a couple of pages, quite manageable) and you're favoured system of over categarisation would still be around, every tram would still be in a cat by number. Every tram would be findable by number, but all photos would be grouped by model or concept (interior etc) rather than by number, finding pictures would be easier. The reason the number cats have to be removed from model cats is for policy: [[COM:OVERCAT]] forbids it. [[User:Liamdavies|Liamdavies]] ([[User talk:Liamdavies|talk]]) 16:16, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
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::Jagro, I meant no offense to you, I just did was I was instructed with the template on who to inform and how. I will however start by saying that I understand trams very well and am very knowledgeable on the subject. Regarding your points: 1) The pages you list contain only 107 images out of over 2000, not good enough. 2) The searching you highlight is not possible, there is no sorting by door count, AC, or anything other than model type/subtype and vehicle number, both of these can be addressed by a single list. 3) You are greatly exaggerating the amount of pictures that would be in the category you used as an example, there would be less than half the number you give (some where around 390, which is only a couple of pages, quite manageable) and you're favoured system of over categarisation would still be around, every tram would still be in a cat by number. Every tram would be findable by number, but all photos would be grouped by model or concept (interior etc) rather than by number, finding pictures would be easier. The reason the number cats have to be removed from model cats is for policy: [[COM:OVERCAT]] forbids it. [[User:Liamdavies|Liamdavies]] ([[User talk:Liamdavies|talk]]) 16:16, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
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:::Liamdavies, I try to understand your proposals. I'm not sure that I understand all your thoughts but the main of them show that you didn't comprehend some of the most basic principles of categorization. That's not a good ground for our discussions about our dilemmas.
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:::You suggested to move [[:Category:Trams in Prague by registration number|Trams in Prague by registration number]] from [[:Category:Trams in Prague|Trams in Prague]] to [[:Category:Tram transport in Prague]]. Did you really not comprehend the relation between these two categories yet? [[:Category:Tram transport in Prague]] is the parent category covering all aspect of tram transport in Prague (trams, infrastructure, organization, staff, service vehicles etc.) and [[:Category:Trams in Prague|Trams in Prague]] is a specific subcategory for tram vehicles. [[:Category:Trams in Prague by registration number|Trams in Prague by registration number]] is apparently a category of tram vehicles and that's why it appertains certainly into [[:Category:Trams in Prague|Trams in Prague]] as its meta-subcategory. This your proposal is totally nonsensical.
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:::Your draft of category scheme is a bit incomprehensible for me. What should mean "Category:Tatra T3 in Prague -> Full of pictures of Tatra T3s in Prague"? Are you proposing a renaming of the categories from standard simple names to more complicated ones? Are you trying to explain that Category:Tatra T3 in Prague should not include subcategories of Tatra T3 trams in Prague? Are you proposing that categories of Tatra T3 subtypes shouldn't be subcategories of the Tatra T3 category? I strongly oppose all three these proposals because they violate standard principles of categorization.
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:::As I can see, you utterly didn't understand what is called "over-categorization". Over-categorization is not a term for too detailed categorization. The fact that some categories contain only one file or one subcategory doesn't base overcategorization. Over-categorization is a term for one kind of violation of modularity principle of categorization. Regrettably, just such overcategorization is proposed by you. If any image of tram is put into the category of this vehicle, the category of the vehicle have to be also properly categorized (by type etc.). When you categorize the image also directly by type, you are commiting exemplary overcategorization. If you are proposing to remove all categories of indivudial vehicles from the category of their type, such change would be a next flagrant violation of categorization principles and a nonsensical break of category structure. If we would implement this your proposal, the categories of individual vehicles would lose most of their sense and usefulness and the categorization of tram vehicles would become chaotic and unmaintainable (some of vehicles would be categorized only by one way, some only by the second way). Strict application of modularity principle should prevent such chaos. The current system of categorization by fleet number is very simple, friendly and helpful even for easy maintenance.
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:::Your proposal to add the explanation of number series by type at the top of category page(s) is reasonable and such overview can be helpful especially for any uploader/editor when he is creating a new category of individual vehicle and want to categorize it properly. However, such description have no impact to the category structure. A possible way how to make the categorization even more simply would be to remove the overview category [[:Category:Trams in Prague by registration number|Trams in Prague by registration number]] and to categorize the categories of individual vehicles only by type (a number would be searchable using this overview description) – however, IMHO also this category is useful and should be kept.
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:::Jagro, your proposal to create [[:Category:Tatras T3M in Prague]] (as a subcategory of [[:Category:Tatra T3M in Prague]]?) is very nonstandard and such category name is not just clear. All categories of vehicles by type are intended for images of vehicles of the corresponding type but we use not plural of the brand name. The two category names proposed by you don't express the distinction zou want to reach. This proposal is not a suitable way how to compensate (trick) disadvantages of modularity principle of categorization. The modularity is not a specific problem of trams but it concerns whatever item. If we have hundreds of photos from any town, uncategorized view of them is better for some usages, and detailed categorization structure by street, building or season is better for another usages. We should not solve this dilemma by overcategorization as you want to do. As was said above many times, the usable solutions are:
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:::*to create "category with all subcategories" view as a systematic software solution. I think, such functionality is urgently required for all types of categories (not only trams).
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:::*to create desired subcategories by view or by part (Interiors of Tatra T3, Headlamps of Škoda 14T, Doors of Tatra T3, Front views of Tatra KT8D5 etc.) - some of such categories rather at the worldwide level rather than at the Prague level. --[[User:ŠJů|ŠJů]] ([[User talk:ŠJů|talk]]) 00:23, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
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