Commons:Categories for discussion/2013/03/Category:Native Americans in art by country

‎Category:Native Americans in art by country: resp. Same issue, different forum. Anachronistic country boundaries are unavoidable and not a problem
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Revision as of 17:35, 2 April 2013
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:'''Rename''' In that case, I vote to rename to {{cl|Indigenous peoples of the Americas in art by country}}, and then move it up one level so it sits under {{cl|Indigenous peoples of the Americas in art}}, and then add {{cl|Native Americans in art}} underneath that category, with a descriptor at the top explaining that it refers to depictions of native americans from what is now the United States; then do the work of creating new sub-categories as necessary to depopulate {{cl|Native Americans in art}}. A suggestion for the future - don't depopulate a category before nominating it for deletion, as it makes it hard to understand what was the editor's intent in creating that cat in the first place.--[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 15:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 
:'''Rename''' In that case, I vote to rename to {{cl|Indigenous peoples of the Americas in art by country}}, and then move it up one level so it sits under {{cl|Indigenous peoples of the Americas in art}}, and then add {{cl|Native Americans in art}} underneath that category, with a descriptor at the top explaining that it refers to depictions of native americans from what is now the United States; then do the work of creating new sub-categories as necessary to depopulate {{cl|Native Americans in art}}. A suggestion for the future - don't depopulate a category before nominating it for deletion, as it makes it hard to understand what was the editor's intent in creating that cat in the first place.--[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 15:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 
:'''Delete''' "By country" is ridiculous. For one thing, you also have tribal nations like the Blackfeet who live in both the US and Canada (similarly, certain groups live in both the US and Mexico). "Indigenous people of the Americas" also encompasses South America, by the way. May want to consider "North America", though I have no strong position. [[:Category:Native Americans in art]] seems fine, though Indigenous peoples of ... " can also work. Or maybe add a category for First Nations people (i.e. Canadians) and if too crowded, then needs to be broken down by tribal affiliation, i.e. "Blackfeet artists" "Sioux artists" etc., leaving people with multiple tribal ancestry in the generic main category. But "by country" is redundant and unnecessary, needs to go. [[User:Montanabw|Montanabw]] ([[User talk:Montanabw|talk]]) 15:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 
:'''Delete''' "By country" is ridiculous. For one thing, you also have tribal nations like the Blackfeet who live in both the US and Canada (similarly, certain groups live in both the US and Mexico). "Indigenous people of the Americas" also encompasses South America, by the way. May want to consider "North America", though I have no strong position. [[:Category:Native Americans in art]] seems fine, though Indigenous peoples of ... " can also work. Or maybe add a category for First Nations people (i.e. Canadians) and if too crowded, then needs to be broken down by tribal affiliation, i.e. "Blackfeet artists" "Sioux artists" etc., leaving people with multiple tribal ancestry in the generic main category. But "by country" is redundant and unnecessary, needs to go. [[User:Montanabw|Montanabw]] ([[User talk:Montanabw|talk]]) 15:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 
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::'''comment''' - note this category is not about artists who are indigenous - this is about depictions in art of various groups. It was suggested that [[:Category:Native Americans in art]] (a) is too big and (b) contains groups which are not in the United States - apparently "Native Americans" only works for those in the US. We already have {{cl|Indigenous peoples of the Americas in art}}, which as you note includes *all* of the Americas (North, south, central, even Caribbean), but the question still remains - if we move the non-US from [[:Category:Native Americans in art]] to {{cl|Indigenous peoples of the Americas in art}}, that category will remain too large and could use breaking down. I don't think there is any issue with linking it to a particular country - we run into this discussion all the time - for example in Wikipedia we have [[:en:Category:Archaeological_sites_in_County_Sligo]], even though these sites were built 5000 years before County Sligo was even imagined - it is impossible to completely avoid anarchronisms! If you really have an issue with anachronism, take a look at [[:Category:People_in_art_by_country]], which is chock full of this sort of stuff.
 
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::IMHO, the best solution is to find something that is practical, and division by current country boundary is widely used across categories in all of wikipedia and commons. If you look at the current depictions, many of them already say "brazilian indians" or "indians in peru" or other such notions, so it won't be hard to break these down (and we already have {{cl|Indigenous_peoples_of_Brazil_in_art}} and {{Category:Indigenous peoples of Canada in art}} - others could be added. Yes you're right, some tribes cross current borders - of course they do, it would be ridiculous to think otherwise... but you can either divide by the current nation-state boundaries, or the much larger geographical ones (e.g. North America, Central America, South America), or come up with other subdivisions and then try to figure it out - I think in the end, for the average user, it will be easier to understand "here is an image of a person who (probably) lived in what is now called Canada".--[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 17:35, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

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